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Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2008.12.28 00:23:00 - [1] Probes won't pick up a cloaked ship. In any case - this is a perfectly legitimate tactic. The thing that is wrong here is your portrayal of the scenario. If you don't do something every now and again - the game will log you out. So these guys can't be completely AFK. Even if you are just orbiting something - the game will log you out. So your presumption that these guys are not at their computers is fallacious. Now, they may well be alt accounts where the guy goes in and checks his mail or his wallet or his skills now and again to keep the character active - but he is there and he does have to do that about every 20 minutes or he will probably get logged out. I don't know the exact criteria and CCP probably doesn't want us to know - but I have multiple accounts and if I don't pay attention to them all - they usually get logged out on me. When that guy gets logged out - his screen won't show that he is logged out but he will disappear from local. In any case, how do you actually know the guy is cloaked? If he gets into the system and has a bunch of safe spots he could just warp back and forth between them. If you can't probe him down - then you don't know what he is. But just because you can't probe him down - does not mean he's a cloaker. Even if you have been attacked by the guys and they are in cloaked ships - it doesn't mean someone else couldn't come along and attack your miners in uncloaked ships. So, since you need to be protecting your miners in 0.0 anyway - what's the problem? If you want to mine without an escort come up to high sec and let Concord do it. Faction Schools Orbiting vs. Kiting
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2008.12.30 04:44:00 - [2] Originally by: Delks Edited by: Delks on 28/12/2008 03:48:39 ... Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk If you don't do something every now and again - the game will log you out. So these guys can't be completely AFK. Even if you are just orbiting something - the game will log you out. So your presumption that these guys are not at their computers is fallacious. There are simple scripts to keep interaction with Eve. You can sit AFK for hours. There are plenty of methods ppl can suggest to circumnavigate the real problem...cloaking has no counter and it's being used to affect others while the cloaker isn't even there. Then - the REAL problem is the Macros - which are already illegal. NOT the cloak. Is there anyone out there defending people who use Macros? And stop saying you don't want to nerf cloaking while demanding methods to counter it. If you change the way the cloaking paradigm works then you are nerfing it. At least be consistent. And - if you guys have been killing some of the cloakers - then what the hell more do you want? Obviously they aren't as invulnerable as you are making them out to be. You already have a counter to the cloakers - which is to protect your ships - you're just to lazy to use it. Besides - the cloak is irrelevant. If a hostile player is in your system - how do you even know that he's in a cloaked ship? What difference does it make that he's in a cloaked ship? If he isn't he can still swoop in and attack you so you're forced into using your Skiff anyway. Why don't you just complain about hostile people in your system. There should be a counter for that. Except there is - which is to protect your ships. If you have a hostile player in your system you need to take measures to deal with them whether they're cloaked or not. Even if he's not cloaked and warping from one safe spot to the next - he's going to be really hard to probe down - so what do you want to nerf next - Safe Spots? Faction Schools Orbiting vs. Kiting
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2008.12.31 05:32:00 - [3] As to there not being a counter for the cloak - mostly the counter is built into the cloak. Ships that can warp cloaked aren't very effective, ships that are effective can't warp when cloaked. But again, none of that matters. What matters is that if you are in 0.0 and you think you can just go mine without protecting your ships then you're just being stupid. All this crap about cloaks is just that. A bunch of crap. If you read the OP's first post he's complaining that they can sit there AFK disrupting his opeations. That is what this is all about and his concerns have been answered time and again. shrug Faction Schools Orbiting vs. Kiting
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.01.05 07:22:00 - [4] Eh ... this is all crap. If Delks got everything they asked for - they'd still have the same problem. If they're being attacked by battleships and such - those can't warp cloaked - so all he has to do is warp out when they warp in. Stay aligned and what the hell is your problem? In fact ... if they are using battleships how the hell do you even know they're cloaking in the first place? Just because you can't find them - doesn't mean they're cloaked. Did these guys tell you they were cloaking? How do you KNOW that they're AFK? Did they TELL you they were AFK? Ah well ... you probably are just a troll. Well congratulations - a five page troll isn't to bad. Faction Schools Orbiting vs. Kiting
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.01.08 08:49:00 - [5] OK ... it's like this. The cloak is there to defeat probes. Make any probe that can defeat the cloak - the cloak is worthless - everyone will have them. So - you are in effect nerfing the cloak. The OP was NOT arguing against cloaks - he was arguing against AFK cloakers - that was his problem. So - this discussion has nothing to do with cloaks themselves - it has to do with being AFK while cloaking. As it is now - under some circumstances if you are inactive for to long you will be logged off. All that needs to be done to satisfy the only legitimate complaint the OP had - is to make it so you need to be doing something. Cloaked ships can't be active the way an AFK Miner can. So if the operator isn't actively doing something with the ship now and again - then he can be logged off - which to a large degree he will be now. If he isn't - then THAT is where the problem lies - NOT with the cloaks. A cloak is in NO sense an I Win Button. The cloak won't help you actually kill ANYBODY. All it does is keep other people from killing you. Go read some of the Stealth Bomber threads if you want to hear about how crappy they are. All the things that can really hurt you, including Stealth Bombers can't warp cloaked. So the cloak already carries it's own penalties. If he has to turn off his cloak to warp in and attack you - THEN HE ISN'T FREAKING CLOAKED ANY MORE - IS HE? The thing is - cloaking is one of the few tactics that allows a small corp to deal with a larger corporations war dec's. If you are operating without a cloak and at war with a larger corporation - they can just gang up on you, camp your bases and stop you from doing anything. Just as with Submarines - the ability to cloak is the weapon of the weak against the strong - and - one of the things a weak corp can do to a strong corp - is to harass their mining operations with cloaked ships. So - this isn't just about the poor defenseless miners against the evil piwates - it's also about weaker corps being bullied by stronger corps - just because they can. Keep that in mind as you contemplate removing one of the few responses a weak corp - and there are a lot more weak corps than there are strong ones - has to defend itself. Most of your weaker corps can't take on the bigger corporations head to head, they'll just blow them up and laugh while they do it. But you can harass their mining operations (if they have them) and cost them something for attacking you. This may not win a war for you but it will make it more costly for the larger corp and maybe make the stronger corporation think a little bit more before casually war deccing a smaller one. That - or once they have war decc'd you - eventually make them tired enough of dealing with your harassment to leave you alone. Yes, of course the strong corp can use cloaked ships too but then it doesn't need to - the weak corporation needs all the help it can get. To many cries for nerfs are not thought through. The developers listen to the whiners, nerf something and then mess up all kinds of things they didn't think about. Cloaking is no panacea for weaker corps being bullied but it is one of the few things they can do besides hide in their base until the bullies get tired and go away for a while.

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